[Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei Haposkim

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 03:29:35PM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: RDB writes:
:> They are not Tinokos Shenishbu because, to quote RMF in Even HaEzer:
:> "They (Reform) are not at all to be considered Tinokos Shenishbu since they
:> see many Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos, and see also Radbaz that there is almost
:> no such a thing"

: Rav Moshe is an interesting case, because he holds of a half way house -
: between tinok shenishbu and rashaim gemorim - at least in relation to those
: who are not Reform or Conservative rabbis.  He holds that today, such people
: are to be considered as people who sin out of desire for parnasa or other
: ta'avas - ie l'ta'avon rather than l'chachis....

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 09:02:06PM +0000, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
: (PS: Vocabulary note: I have used the word "sinner" here because it
: is deliberately vague. I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion
: of what kind of sinner is in which category, such as merely "l'tayavon"
: or full-blown "l'hachis". Wherever you want to put that line, I'm simply
: mentioning which mitzvos it will be relevant to.)

I would draw another distinction than the one RnCL makes or RAM is trying
to avoid -- there are halakhos that depend on the person being kasher,
and there are halakhos that depend on the substance of emunah.

Eg with respect to tefillah... An atheist or someone with a warped
definition of the Deity might not be culpable for his beliefs. He could
be letei'avon, he could be oneis, shogeig, etc... Ebven perhaps someone
RAM couldn't call a "sinner" nor even letei'avon. But he doesn't believe
in E-lokei Avraham.

Should you count him for a minyan? What's he davening to?

That's what I mean by the substance of emunah. Regardless of
culpability, the belief itself is at odds with the mitzvah.

Another case: Stam yeinam. Regardless of guilt or culpability, if the
person is capable of sanctifying wine to something other than avodas
Hashem, where both the avodah and the Deity are as the Torah teaches,
one of the sevaros for stam yeinam (a gezeirah atu yayin nesekh) applies.
Is he included?

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:19:19PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: 1) The level of knowledge today suffices to judge them as Mezidim (Radvaz
: (they have been *warned* to return to Torah,not just heard about
: it)...

I raised this before when this thread was fresher. The TsN is an example
of shogeig, not a kelal in and of itself. However, the same Radvaz holds
that someone who is misled through honest derishah vechaqira is an oneis.
Is the 2nd generation Morrano that he is describing neither shogeig nor
oneis? Is he more culpable for what his parents and the priests in school
taught him than had he reached the conclusion himself?

I find the Radvaz's whole position difficult, and I'm betting we haven't
yet gotten to the bottom of it.

...
: The Chazon Ish himself writes that the Machlokes Acharonim is on the issue
: of "the level of knowledge, to what extent to they know of the existence of
: the Jews, and that their fathers separated from them and turn their
: shoulder." He also writes that the reason why the Tinokos Shenishbu are
: treated as Jews is because they have a Chazakah that they will repent if
: told sufficiently....

Much is in that word "told". I don't think the CI means imparting abstract
ideas; rather, qiruv.

:                                    The CI forbade foods cooked in factories
: by non-Torah observant Jews, and RYSE says that we see that L'chumrah the CI
: did not think they had a Din of TNS.

As above, I would take the CI to mean that bishul aku"m is because he is
aku"m, not because he is a bad person. This is in contrast to maalin
umoridin, which is an issue of guilt.

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 10:50:59AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: As to your question as to whether Rav Moshe would have today or even in the
: 80/90s - which is after the times he was writing, have considered even
: reform and conservative rabbis to fall within a different category than
: kofer b'ikar, we can really only speculate....

I raised the issue for a different reason. It's different enough for us
to need a new pesaq. Not necessarily to guess about what RMF would have
said, but to find out what "Shemu'el bedoro" says.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 42nd day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        6 weeks in/toward the omer.
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Fax: (270) 514-1507       reliability crucial for universal brotherhood?