[Avodah] Gebrochts

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:16:12AM -0400, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: The gemara in Pesachim 41a discusses the *machloket* between R. Meir and
: R. Yossi whether one fulfills the mitzva of matza (Seder) if the matza
: is soaked in water. The RIF there...
: Rabbenu Manoach (on Rambam Hilchot Chametz U'Matza 6:6) agrees with the
: RIF that one cannot soak matza in wine (but does permit water)...
: The Maharil (brought in the BACH on the TUR Orach Chaim 461) agrees (soaked
: in water OK, but not in soup that would overpower the taste). The Magen
: Avraham there (OC 461) even feels that the Mechaber would even allow
: matza soaked in wine ! The TUR OC 461 and Mechaber OC 461 agree with
: the RIF and Rambam (that matza soaked in water is OK).

: Then how did this minhag ta'ut originate ...

How does any of the above make the minhag a ta'us? Every minhag has
precedent before its inception in which people didn't follow it.

As RRW and I debated before, I would limit the concept of "minhag ta'us"
to minhagim that actually violate halakhah. Not even ones built on false
assuptions. (But here we don't even have that.)

: It was only much later (Shulchan Aruch Harav) who thought that perhaps
: the reason would have been because matza made then was MUCH thicker
: than it is today and perhaps some unbaked dough would become chametz
: if mixed with water. But this reasoning was knocked down by the Shaarei
: Teshuva (Orach Chaim 460:10) since in the past 150 years, matza is made
: thin.

Because of the very same change in process the SAhR is discussing!

It would seem that rather than "knocked down", the question is whether
the switch to quickly made thin crackers was more of a cause for gebrochts
(quickly made) or less (thin). The SAhR also considers gebrochts to be a
relatively new custom in his day (less than 2 generations) and subsequent
to the change in baking style.

Thanks to RSZ, who cited this SAhR in a discussion some years back about
how long ago Ashkenazim started exclusively making crispy matzos. (I
would think there must have been some mesorah beforehand, as I I can't
picture people suddenly being meiqil on fulfilling the mitzvah with
something that has a hava amina of being pas haba beqisnin.)

:-)||ii!
-Micha

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