[Avodah] birchat hachama

[Micha Berger]

R' Eli Turkel replied to me:
>> The "return to location" I agree, but I'm not sure how you know that
>> they took it as an astronomical event. Again, looking at the beraisa,
>> that "location" is defined by the rule of Shabetai, which is decidedly
>> NOT an astronomical event.

> I dont think we are disagreeing. By an astromical event I mean the
> length of the (mean) solar year...

We don't disagree on the above, it's on the next paragraph:
> My point was that early generations seem to have accepted that a
> return to location is happening even though they knew that Shmuel was
> not correct. In fact Rambam indicates that the shittah of Shmuel is not
> correct but still paskens the 28 years.

The Rambam:
- didn't believe the sun was created on a Wed (he holds the 6 "days"
  were causal stages, not points in time; Moreh 2:30, c.f. Abarbanel
  opening to Bereishis, 9th question)
- held that creation was in Tishrei
- knew that compared to his own estimate for the tequfah (Qiddush
  haChodesh 13:11) in his day they were marking a date that was 10 days
  off (as RET writes)
- didn't have much use for the hour of Shabetai

and yet, as RET notes, still stood by Abayei's once every 28 years. So
why would you think he took it astronomically? Because they don't make
a point of saying "this isn't astronomical"? I'm arguing that until
the industrial age, or perhaps as far back a Galileo, no one would
have bothered. We can't judge from science, since the distinction was
unimportant until the emergence of scientific method, the separation
of science from natural philosophy and alchemy, and the huge success
science and technology have had in the past couple of centuries.

Given that there was no way the Rambam could possibly have related it to
an astronomical event, how can you take his silence to mean he did?


RZS quoted the same idea of mine and asked:
> I take the gemara's calling that hour "Saturn" to be no more significant
> than any contemporary reference to Saturday.  The gemara is using it (in
> this instance) as no more than the name of that hour.  It's what the
> hour was known as in the local culture.

Abayei's words are:
    kol 28 shanin vehadar machzor
    venafelah tequfas Nisan
    beShabatai
    be'urta detelas naghi arba

The hour is commonly known in the gemara as sheqi'ah. So, I translated
Abayei as:
    kol 28 shanin vehadar machzor
    venafelah tequfas Nisan beShabatai -- the state of the sun
    be'urta detelas naghi arba -- being the time
This is why I earlier referred to Shabatai as part of the location of
the sun, not a point in the week.

I can see RZS is reading it as:
    kol 28 shanin vehadar machzor
    venafelah tequfas Nisan -- state of the sun
    beShabatai be'urta detelas naghi arba -- the time
which is retrospect seems no less valid, although why then doesn't he
just say "sheqi'ah"?

The bottom line would remain that Abayei dragged in the astrology system
when the usual terminology is more straightforward. So in either case,
added to the above about the Rambam, I really think it's hard to argue
that Abayei or the rishonim who were analyzing him were thinking about
what we who keep these categories more distinct would call astronomy.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
micha at aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
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