[Avodah] bribes

[Zev Sero]

Yitzchok Zirkind wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 7:03 AM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name 
> <mailto:zev at sero.name>> wrote:
> 
>> I think
>> it obvious that if a person believes that without a bribe the judge
>> will rule against him despite his case's merits, then lifnei iver is
>> moot 
  
> Why? Judging false and taking bribes are 2 seperate issues.

Because he's not an iver.


> Are you 
> suggesting that this is a case where we would be permitted to be Oiver a 
> Lav and cause another Jew to be Oveir a Lav, in order to save the judge 
> from judging wrong.

I hadn't even thought of that, but now that you mention it, yes.
How is the lav of taking shochad worse than the lav of deliberately
giving a false judgement?  And if the two are equal, then how is the
giver doing any lav at all?


>  (Of course all this is where one is 100% sure that 
> his bribe will only effect Lizkos Es haZakai)

Every person believes that his case is right.  And when the judge
solicits money in order to rule his way, that would tend to reinforce
that belief.  A person can only act on what he believes to be true;
ein lo ledayan ela ma she'enav ro'os applies equally to everyone.


> I was talking only about (jewish) Dayonim

But the original question wasn't only about them.   Most cases of
bribery are not in courts at all, let alone in BD.


> (in a case of BN much can be discussed see Minchas Chinuch Mitzvah 23).

> IOW the question is can someone be Oiver a Lav to save himself money?
> or can he be Oiver a Lav to save the other side from Gezel?

In general, I would say no.  But here the only lav in question is lifnei
iver, and I don't believe it applies.  In fact I think the very idea is
ridiculous.  If an armed robber holds you up, must you refuse to give
him the money, in order not to be over on lifnei iver, or mesayea`?!
On the contrary, hal'itehu larasha veyamos.  How is this case different?


>>> Isn't that exactly what the Rambam quoted by RYZ is saying?

>> No. The Rambam is saying that the dayan may not receive such a bribe.
>> He does *not* say that a person may not pay such a bribe. 
 
> In Hil. Sanhedrin 23:2 he says just that.

And that is exactly my point.  There is *no* issur on giving shochad.
The only issue is lifnei iver/mesayea` and that is *as always* a
highly circumstance-dependant question.


Speaking of the Rambam, look at Hil' Talmud Torah 1:10 (1:7 in most
editions).  It is forbidden to charge money for teaching TShBP.  But
the only teachers a person can find refuse to work for free, he must
pay one of them to teach him.  According to you, how could he do this?
Surely he is transgressing lifnei iver!  This is "two sides of a river":
if he would only stand his ground and refuse to pay, the teacher would
not be able to sin.  And yet he is not only allowed but required to
pay.  Why?  To me the answer is obvious: because he has no choice.
The teacher is wrong, but what can you do if this is what he demands?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher