[Avodah] How the Torah portrays our great men

[Yitzchok Levine]

At 03:11 AM 11/7/2008, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
>R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:
>>In light of this, I have to wonder why some think that all 
>>"negatives" about our predecessors should be suppressed. What I am 
>>talking about is the tendency of some to go so far as to deny that 
>>certain things took place in the past if they do not jive with our 
>>present view of what the religious world should look like.  As I 
>>have quipped more than once, "There are Holocaust deniers and there 
>>are Orthodox deniers."
>This is rather a gross oversimplication of a complex issue. We can 
>not generalize from this Ramban for three reasons 1) He was 
>criticized by the Maharal for saying such a thing because Maharal 
>asserts we can only ascribe error when Chazal tell us there is 
>error. 2) The Ramban's view is in fact alluded to in the Zohar as R' 
>Chavell discusses on this verse. 3) Hirsch is not making such a 
>generalization but is simply saying that Chazal tell us that the 
>Avos erred in certain matters and thus weren't infallible.
>
>Thus  we can say that there is absolutely no evidence to support the 
>assertion that the Ramban is teaching us that **we** have the right 
>to ascribe error to the Avos or anyone else without a source in 
>Chazal. Furthermore the citation from Hirsch also at most says - 
>that Chazal tells us that the Avos erred - but he doesn't say that 
>we can ascribe errors without support from Chazal.
>
>Thus it is problematic to read "there are Orthodox deniers" into the 
>words of either the Ramban or Hirsch - neither would have agreed with you.
>
>Daniel Eidensohn

I believe that you have misinterpreted what I wrote above. (I may not 
have been as clear as could have been also.)

My quip "There are Holocaust deniers and there are Orthodox deniers." 
was referring to those who would suppress and/or deny what are 
historical facts. Let me give you an example.

Reb Zundel Berman of Berman books fame was one of the first young men 
to learn in Lakewood. He told me the following. "Reb Aaron Kotler 
said, 'Three years in kollel is enough for anyone.'" I asked him, 
"Did you yourself actually here this?" He replied, "Yes." (Now I do 
not want to get into a discussion about whether Reb Aaron would say 
the same thing today. I am willing to grant that we live in different 
times, and he might very well take a different approach if he were 
alive today.)

I once related what Reb Aaron said about kollel to someone I was 
talking to. A fellow who was standing nearby, who was not part of the 
conversation and whom I did not know, almost shouted, "It's a lie! 
It's a lie! He never said such a thing!" I looked at him and said, 
"Are you telling me that Reb Zundel Berman lied to me?" He replied, "Yes!"

So here you have an example of what I call an Orthodox denier. Please see

"<http://www.jewishpress.com/content.cfm?contentid=16669>My Mind Is 
Made Up. Do Not Confuse Me With The Facts!"   The Jewish Press, 
August 25, 2004 pages 7 & 77.

for more on this.

You may also want to read Facing the Truths of History by Rabbi Dr. 
J. J. Schachter at http://yuriets.yeshivalive.com/TU8_Schachter.pdf

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