[Avodah] Praying to angels

[T613K at aol.com]

From: Micha Berger _micha at aishdas.org_ (mailto:micha at aishdas.org) 


On Sun, Oct 05,  2008, Danny Schoemann wrote:
:> We do see cases of angels making mistakes.  Some  examples:

:> - The Bnei Elohim were supposedly angles who  seduced  humans

:> - The angels that went to destroy Sdom had to  admit to Lot that  all
:> was not in their hands, after bragging they  were in charge.

:> - In  Chagiga there's a story of the Angel of  Death's gofer killing the
:> wrong  person - and it's made to sound  like a non-rare occurrence.

On Sun, Oct 05, 2008, T613K at aol.com  wrote:
: I've always understood this kind of stories in a  "dibra Torah  beloshon 
bnei 
: Adam" kind of way, that they are stories told as seen   from a human 
: perspective with lessons that we humans are supposed to learn  from  them...

>>So you do believe that you can declare a story  in the chumash an
allegory based on your own reasoning? I am surprised.  Personally,
I would distinguish between the first two cases which are pesuqim  in
chumash and the third, which is aggadita....


....If someone  prays to something without bechirah, then the act is silly --
why ask  something that has no choice? It would be like, "Rock, may it
be thy will not  to fall when I let go of you." <<


 
 
>>>>>
1.  When I said, "they are stories told as seen  from a human  perspective" I 
did not mean that the stories in the Chumash were  "allegories" that never 
actually happened!  In fact, I'm amazed that you  took it that way.  I meant 
that the stories are told from a human point of  view, not from G-d's point of 
view, events as they are seen here below and not  as they are seen from Above.  
I meant that when creatures that don't  have bechira are depicted as acting 
"badly" it's because from a human  perspective it looks that way, but in 
actuality they can only do what Hashem  tells them to do.  
 
So if the Bnai Elohim were angels who seduced humans, then they could  only 
have done so if Hashem wanted them to do that.  Of course that is a  big IF -- 
it is by no means clear from the Chumash that the Bnai Elohim were  malachim 
and I quite doubt that they were.  There are other interpretations  that make 
more sense to me.  
 
The same is true in regard to the malachim who came to Lot.  I  believe that 
story really happened, I don't think it's an allegory and I didn't  say it's 
an allegory.  (I also don't think it was part of Avraham's dream,  I don't 
think the whole visit of the three angels was all a dream or a  vision.  There are 
different meforshim and I claim the privilege of  preferring those I prefer.  
It makes no sense to me that the angels were  all a vision but Lot was really 
saved and Sodom was really destroyed.)   Whatever the angels said to Lot they 
could have said only according to Hashem's  will.  If it looked like they 
made mistakes or had to admit error, that  could only be the way it was made to 
appear according to human  understanding.  
 
A slightly analogous situation would be Hashem saying, "Na'aseh Adam"  
speaking to His pamalya, not because He needed their advice or input, but in  order 
to teach human kings and all human beings the midah of anava and the  positive 
value of consulting underlings, to teach by example -- Mah Hu rachum  and so 
on.
 
2. Angels don't have bechira, but they do have intelligence, and  therefore 
speaking to them is not a mindless act like speaking to a rock.   I don't 
believe that making a request of angels is the same thing as "praying"  to them,  
but we seem to be going round the same mulberry bush.   I don't think saying to 
the angels on Friday night "Borchuni lesholom" is  davening to them any more 
than asking a Rebbe for a bracha is davening to  him.  The angels will bentsh 
you whether you ask them to do so or not, you  are only acknowledging that 
that's what they do and being courteous to  them.  If you ask a friend to put in 
a good word for you with his boss, you  are not praying to your friend. I know 
you skip the  line in Sholom  Aleichem that asks the malachim to bless you 
but do you also skip the passage in  the Gemara that says the malachim bentsh 
you?  Do you skip the pasuk in  Chumash where Yakov asks the angel to bless to 
him?




--Toby  Katz
GCT
=============






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