[Avodah] Kiddush in Shul - Friday night - Some off-list comments

[SBA]

From: Avrum 
The minhag still remains in practice today in the Viener Kehilla. Even in
Williamsburg where the nussach was changed to Sefard, they still make
kiddush. 
The chazan starts from borei pri hagofen and not from yom hashishi.
All children are lined up next to the chazan and the kiddush wine is
distributed to them.
The same is done for Havdala where the shamash starts from the birchas
hagofen - not from hinei. Then besomim, ha'esh, hamavdil. 

The only time when Kiddush is not made are the first two nights of Pesach,
since this Minhag originated for the orchim who don't have where to eat.
However on Pesach 'kol dichfin yeisei veyeichol' therefore there is no need
to be motze the guests because they will participate in the Kiddush of their
baal achsanye.

Sukkas it is interesting that Kiddush is made - even though it's chutz
lesukah. (I didn't look up why)

I think the Sharei Teshuva brings that it's a segulah to stand while Kiddush
is made in shul "for ayefos haraglayim" - for tired feet. I think the Mishna
Brurah brings it.

Once a year leil simchas torah the zechus of yayin lekidush ulehavdolah
is auctioned. This usually is sold for a higher price than all other
zechusim. (chasanim, ner le'omed etc.)

There are a lot of halochos throughout the year that are nogeya to how and
when this kidush is made (sefira, chanukah, etc.)

I was last year in KAJ on simchas torah (due to a family member that was
hospitalized in the neighboring Colombia Hospital). 
There, the Chazan turns around and recites Kiddush facing the crowd. A
gigantic becher is filled, and there's a special small table covered with a
mentele embroidered with words from Kiddush (don't remember which). He
raises the 'kos' high in the air while doing the kiddush, with their style
nussach - ceremony style...
 
Just wrote to you what came to my mind now.
AYH


> From: tk 
>
> FIRST OF ALL THIS MINHAG IS ALREADY MENTIONED IN THE GEMURE PEREK ARVEI
> PESUCHIM. I THINK IT WAS ABANDONED IN MOST KEHILOS BECAUSE THIS WAS MADE 
> TO BE MOTZIE THE POOR PEOPLE WHO ATE IN BEIS MEDRASH. SINCE THERE WERE NO 
> MORE PEOPLE EATING THERE .
>
That sounds right
>
> BY THE WAY SAY EVERY SHABOS IN MI SHEBEIRACH UMI
> SHENOSNIM YAYIN LEKIDUSH ILHAVDULU.
>
> That could also mean stam giving aniyim wine for their own Kiddush

> WHAT DO YOU MEAN THEIR OWN? WHY WOULD THEY GET A BRUCHE FOR THAT? 
IT CERTAINLY MEANS BEING MENADEV FOR THE PUBLIC LIKE THE REST OF THE LIST
==========================

I remember both Kiddush and Havdollah in shule in Carlton.
It was a culture shock to come to a shule where this was not done.
Without checking, I think the source is in Pesachim, perek Arvei Pesachim.
DS
=====================================

Let me tell you a story..

Many years ago in the time of Rabbi Zaichyk at Mizrachi it happened that I
davvened there Friday night which was Asara Betevet. Being daylight saving
Mincha started at 8 and kabbalat shabbat followed. 

As a guest I was asked to davven for the amud and about Lecha Dodi time I
realised that the gabbai was preparing Kiddush - which would have been way
before the roughly 9.30 zman. I motioned that I didnt want  
to make Kiddush and was told that R Zaichyk (who was away that  
week) had instructed Kiddush was to be said. However in deference to my
obvious not wanting to make Kiddush the late Bernie Pushett told someone
else to do it. 
I pondered the matter as it would be a new shaila - only recently in
Australia has the issue of early davvening/ daylight saving for asara
betevet been real. 

The next week I was in Yerushalayim and davvening in my old yeshiva Kol
Torah had the opportunity to ask my teacher Harav Yehoshua Neuwirth shlita
author of Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata as to his views. 

We discussed backwards and forwards - brit on fast days - giving to children
- is the need to wait at the end of asara betevet so absolute - and then he
said- (and I am freely translating) every Wednesday I discuss halachic
issues with the Rosh Yeshiva (Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zatzal) and I
will I ask. 

A few days later Rav Yehoshua sees me across the street and in his humility
and to mekayim divrei chachamim crosses over Rehov Hapisga and tells me
Kiddush should be said - saying "Harosh Yeshivah madgish sheyesh lekayeim et
haminhag". He added that even though this is not Minhag Yerushalayim etc the
Rosh yeshivah was always makpid on kehillot keeping minhagim and in that
context wanted that Kiddush should be said where such had always been the
Minhag - and the wine given to children.

Yossi
=================================================
This was the minhag in all the established shuls in Europe.

The chasidim abandoned the Minhag when they set up their own shtiblekh/ 
botei medrash.

PM
=======================================================

From: Zalman 
Most MO and classic orthodox shuls in the US have the Kiddush in shul 
Friday night.The yekke shuls in WH also have kiddush.
The shtiblekh do not.

============
From: Arie Folger 
Hi RSBA,
I don't get Areivim, but would be interested in the most fascinating
responses. BTW, I heard that when American Jews weren't 'aumeyd
benissoyau'n and accepted to work on Shabbos, would insist on consuming
only yayin mevushal. --Arie
====


From: Danny Schoemann [mailto:doniels at gmail.com] 
We used to do it in the Adas Yeshurun of Johannesburg; they probably
still do, but I left 18 years ago.

I've also seen it done in Etz Chaim of Strasbourg as well as in Breuers, NY.
Never seen it done in EY.

------------------------------
From: Rabbi Chaim I 
This minhag goes back to the time of the Gemoro when oniyim and orchim would

be given a Shabbos meal in a room adjacent to the shul.  Presumably wine was

not plentiful and so the Chazan would say the Kiddush in shul within earshot

and presumably eyeshot of those who were in the anteroom to be mekayem 
'kiddush bemokom seudah'.  Even when the practise of providing such Shabbos 
meals was discontinued the minhag of making Kiddush persisted.  One argument

was because it had the force of a takono deRabonon that cannot be abrogated 
even when the original reason no longer pertained. Others say because it was

seen as the official declaration of kedushas Shabbos in shul for whcih 
reason - in most shules - the Chazan faces the Kehilo when he says it.