[Avodah] Praying to angels

[Yitzhak Grossman]

On Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:59:35 -0400
Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:

> Micha Berger wrote:
> 
> > : So where does that leave us with "machnisei rachamim" and "shlosh
> > : esre midot"?  All I can say is that this was dealt with over the
> > : centuries by those well above my pay grade, and the overwhelming
> > : majority concluded that it should be said.  My bottom line is that
> > : if R Amram Gaon and R Shrira Gaon wrote to say it, it can't be wrong.
> > 
> > Not sure why the 13 middos are included. I assume this is a reference to
> > something in a piyut that I missed. As middos of how Hashem acts toward us
> > that we should emulate (cf Tomer Devorah), where is the implied middleman?
> 
> The piyut "shlosh esre midot", which addresses "kol midah nechonah"
> directly, asking it to put in a good word for the speaker.

I think that you may be confusing two different piyyutim centering on
the thirteen middos.  The one beginning "hashem, hashem ... ezkerah
elokim ve'e'hemayah" [0] contains the line "midas ha'rahamim aleinu
hisgalgeli", which the Karban Nesanel [1] did indeed find theologically
objectionable.  The one beginning "shelosh esreh midos" [2], which
contains the line you mention "na kol middah nechonah ahaleh pnei malki
betehinah", does not face any opposition, AFAIK, since the grammar of
all the stanzas makes it clear that we are not actually addressing the
middos; they are all written in either the first person ('ahaleh',
'avakesh', 'eshanen'), or in the second person but addressed to God
("na kol middah nechonah deheh osam Hashem lehastirah"), meaning (as
translated by Weingarten, who appears to be correct) that we are
beseeching God by invoking His attributes, but not the middos
themselves.

[0] said on the second Monday of a Bahab cycle
[1] RH, #3 at the end of the first Perek
[2] said on Erev Rosh Ha'Shanah

> Zev Sero

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat