[Avodah] RAYK and the end of chol

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:59:34AM IST, Rt Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
:> But the whole zerichas hashemesh model of geulah didn't stand up that well
:> to subsequent events. He wrote before WWII, after all.

: I'm sorry, but there is a basic misunderstanding of the model.  The model is 
: "Ayelet HaShachar" that is - at first it comes and goes.  In real life there 
: are ups and downs. There are moments of great steps toward Ge'ulah, and 
: there are moments of great falls away from Ge'ulah, into darkness.

Do you have sources from before Oslo that suggest such a thing? Because
it's certainly not the way Orot was presented to me. (Nor how R' Dovid
Cohen understood it back when I learned from him in camp, although RDC
isn't necessarily an objective authority on hashqafos with which he
disagrees.)

I think that Yamit and Oslo posed such trouble for the DL community
specifically because it raised fundamental hashkafic issues. They defied
R' Kook's (admittedly more RZYK's) excpetations of the ge'ulah.

: The claim that it is a step ladder going one way is one I've seen, but not 
: in Rav Kook.

Well, it's in Eim haBanim Semeichah, IIRC. But I'm pretty sure this is
how RAYK's metaphor was understood until recently, when his followers
were forced into seeing something they hadn't noticed before.

:> RAYK thought that the world was in an accelerated path to the geulah.

: Not at all.  What he saw was that the a change has come over the
: world...
: Can anyone honestly say, after seeing Israel export fruit and vegetables to 
: the world, when comparing the situation here to what it was 120 years ago - 
: when it was a land of swamps and desert, that something hasn't changed?

(Tangent: Obviously, Agudists can. Anti-Zionists will agree something
changed, but they will say it's the introduction of a nisayon. But the
neutral non-Zionist can say that it's not a fundamental change.)

I fail to see the gap implied by your "not at all" between my "accelerated
path to the ge'ulah" and your "a change has come". I think you're saying
that the change came and it's not a new "straighter" (to speak what little
I know of RAYK-speak) path to the ge'ulah? Isn't that what "reeishis
tzemichas ge'ulaseinu", declaring it "atchalta dege'ulasa", means?

...
: Rav Kook's view of learning chol has nothing to do with Zionism.  So, please 
: don't mix the issues.

On this, I strongly disagree. Both depend heavily on RAYK's ability to
see the qodesh in everything. The Or Ein Sof that is even in the chol
(which is merely hidden qedushah, a/k/a a long curvy path).

: Rav Kook's view is based on the sentence (Zohar?) "Histakel BaTorah U'Vara 
: Alma". So, there is no knowledge of this world that exists that is outside 
: of Torah.  Therefore, there is no real "chol" as is common to think of 
: history, math, archeology, languages etc. and in Rav Kook's view one has to 
: study these topics and not just limit oneself to what he finds within the 
: pages of the Talmud.

And no real chol in the secular Zionist. Hainu hakh.

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 04:38:03PM IDT, R Michael Makovi wrote:
: Everything you just used to say Rav Kook was wrong, Rav Kook already
: responded to.

: Rav Kook said that his generation was idealistic and simply didn't
: know how to express it, and he was confident that soon they'd learn.
: You protest that time has proven him wrong, because rather than
: improving, subsequent generations have only gotten worse, and now that
: lack not only religiosity but even Zionism too (i.e. post-Zionism).

: But Rav Kook himself said that the future generations would throw away
: all Torah and Judaism, and be left with nothing of those, b'klal.

But not the idealism. That was the first peeking of the Or which RAYK
considered part of the seed that was sprouting.

: Without Torah, all their Zionism had no basis - a Jew removed from
: Torah is like a flower from water and soil, and while it can live for
: a while, and perhaps even appear to thrive, it will eventually die.
: Zionism without Torah has a very fleeting lifespan, before people
: start crying that the Arabs have equal rights and we have no right to
: the land and that we all ought to return to Europe since we want to be
: just like them anyway, etc.

Is this your extrapolation? As I have said before, my exposure to RAYK's
thought slight. It's actually limited to secondary sources and excerpts
(around 50-60 pages, but all for HS level) collected in a sourcebook by
the Misrad haChinukh. And the aforementioned hashkafah talked with RDC.

: Rav Hirsch says much the same as Rav Kook...
: So Ravs Kook and Hirsch say the same regarding disillusionment and
: return, except Rav Kook speaks of Jews specifically, whereas Rav
: Hirsch speaks of mankind.

Again, I see nothing (except in post-Oslo apologetics) in which RAYK
suggests disillusionment. My exposure, though, is limited, and pointing
me to a mar'eh maqom should help me clear up my confusion.

(BTW, R' Jack Love agreed with my impression of reishit tzemichat
ge'ulateinu, when I discussed this thread with him in shul. He suggested
that RZYK's yahrzeit should be really observed as the anniversary of 10
Av 5765.)

...
: However, I myself will say that the Holocaust has nothing to do
: anything here: Rav Kook is referring to the loss and regain of
: idealism and Torah by the Jewish people, and the Holocaust is an
: external event not caused by the Jews. Any objection has to be that
: the Jews are not returning to Torah as Rav Kook thought they would,
: not that the Nazis didn't behave according to what Rav Kook said the
: Jews would do.

You mean, like when intermarriage outpaces kiruv by 40:1, even factoring
in Israel?

: We still have Yafetic culture today - take a glance at Israel. What we
: need to do is Judaize it. I think Rav Berkovits is a good example of
: taking TIDE and transplanting it to Israel.

I'll reply to this after your clarification reaches a digest. I do not
read most posts for content until I can print the digest up for the
ride home.

Shetir'u baTov,
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha at aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
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