[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Daniel Eidensohn]

chana at kolsassoon.org.uk wrote:

>
> So far I have avoided getting involved in this discussion, mostly 
> because I have agreed with you as compared with RMM that one cannot say 
> that a tinok shenishba bears no guilt for their actions which violate 
> the Torah.
>
> However, now you have started quoting RJB, with whom I have been round 
> the houses before and relying on him to my mind has made you express 
> matters incorrectly vis a vis the modern responsa (ie starting with the 
> Binyan Tzion).
>

>
> If they are mechallel shabbas b'farhesia, and you do not adopt this 
> tinok shenishba language, it is questionable on what basis you are 
> permitted to do that -especially as the sources say it is impossible.
>
>   
>
I did not say I agreed fully with RJB. I did feel it relevant to be the 
messenger to post his posting - since he wasn't doing it himself.  
Therefore I am not sure where we disagree - except for your assertion 
that they can not do teshuva.

found in Daas Torah page 64

*Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 3:14):* Those who transgress one of these 24 
sins—even though they are still Jews—lose their portion in the World to 
Come. There are also others sins that are much more minor than these—but 
for which our sages said that habitual transgression also has causes the 
loss of a portion in the World to Come. Therefore, it is best to keep 
far away from these transgressions. For example giving somebody a 
nickname or calling him by a nickname, embarrassing somebody publicly, 
getting honor at the expense of another’s dignity, insulting talmidei 
chachomim, insulting one’s teachers, degrading the holidays, profaning 
the holy. However, the sinner loses his portion in the World to Come 
only when he denies without repenting for the sin. However, if he 
repents then he will get a portion in the World to Come. That is because 
nothing stands against repentance. If he was a heretic his entirely life 
and at the end repented—he has a portion n the World to Come….

*Rambam[i] <#_edn1>(Hilchos Avoda Zara 2:5)*: … a Jewish heretic is not 
considered a part of the Jewish people and he is never accepted back 
even if repents…It is prohibited to talk with them or reply to them in 
any manner…

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*[i]* <#_ednref1>* **רמב"ם (הלכות עבודת כוכבים ב:ה) *ישראל שעבד עבודת 
כוכבים הרי הוא כעובד כוכבים לכל דבריו ואינו כישראל שעובר עבירה שיש בה 
סקילה, מומר לעבודת כוכבים הרי הוא מומר לכל התורה כולה, וכן האפיקורסים 
מישראל אינן כישראל לדבר מן הדברים ואין מקבלים אותם בתשובה לעולם שנאמר כל 
באיה לא ישובון ולא ישיגו ארחות חיים, והאפיקורסים הם התרים אחר מחשבות לבם 
בסכלות דברים שאמרנו עד שנמצאו עוברים על גופי תורה להכעיס בשאט בנפש ביד 
רמה ואומרים שאין בזה עון, ואסור לספר עמהן ולהשיב עליהן תשובה כלל...


    Resolution of contradiction

*Rambam**[i]* <#_edn1>*(Letter #615:8): …*concerning the apparent 
contradiction [between Hilchos Teshuva and Hilchos Avoda Zara] as to 
whether a heretic can repent and obtain the World to Come. In fact, 
there is no contradiction. The statement found in Hilchos Avoda Zara 
that his repentance is not accepted means that he is always presumed to 
be a heretic. His apparent repentance is to be assumed to be from fear 
or to fool people. The other statement from Hilchos Teshuva that their 
repentance is accepted is referring to the case where they have in fact 
genuinely repented—in their relationship to G‑d. That is why they obtain 
the World to Come. It is specifically dealing with their relationship to 
G‑d. The first statement from Hilchos Teshuva is describing their 
relationship with other people—and in that case, their repentance is 
presumed to be false.



[i] *רמב"ם (איגרות הרמב"ם מאת ר' יצחק שילת חלק ב' עמוד 
תרט"ו)* ואמנם אשר תחשבוהו סתירה בענין המינים—אין סתירה בו כלל, לפי שאחד 
משני המאמרים—"אין מקבלין אותן בתשובה"—רצונו לומר בזה שלא נקבל אנחנו מהם 
תשובה, ולא נראם כבעלי תשובה, אלא נעמידם בחזקת מינים כמו שהיו, וזה אשר 
יראו מן הכשרות אמנם הוא מפחד, או לגנוב דעת הבריות. וזה המאמר האחר הוא, 
שהם אם עשו תשובה באמת בינם לבין בוראם—הרי יש להם חלק לעולם הבא, וזה דין 
במה שבינם לבין בוראם, והראשון הוא במה שבינם לבין בני אדם.


Daniel Eidensohn