[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 02:27pm IST, R Michael Makovi wrote:
: Indeed - ALL gerim are not going to be able to keep all the mitzvot at
: first - like a bar mitzvah. It's simply impossible for it to be
: otherwise. Heck, an FFB is not able to keep ALL the mitzvot properly!
: So practical observance of the mitzvot cannot possibly be measured by
: anything except the effort and the intent.

And this is muchrach form the fact that a me'ikar hadin, one need only
teach the geir a sampling of halakhos so that he gets a sense of what
halakhah is like.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 08:02pm IST, R Michael Makovi wrote:
: Correct. I was under the impression that we were distinguishing between
: 1) Saying "I will TRY to keep them all", and
: 2) Saying, "I will fail to keep them all, because I am imperfect"

:                      ... in place of 2 should be substituted,
: 2) Saying, "I will not even try to keep them all, because they are too
: hard, but I recognize the chiyuv"

I would prefer to formulate qabbalas ol mitzvos as the belief that one
is supposed to live according to halakhah, and that in cases where one
isn't, the flaw is mine, not halakhah's.

There is the person who tries and fails. And there is the person who
fails to even try. But then there's the person who at the time of his
conversion decided that some halakhah is wrong. That's the person whose
geirus is invalid.

C and R simply don't have our concept of halakhah. Thus, they can't
produce a geir, even if they educate the candidate and then try to get
an O BD to do the geirus itself.

There is thus a halachic line that one poseiq could legitimately say
another camp, even another O camp, has crossed.


I have no idea where the notion that ameikh ami, or "Shema Yisrael"
replaces the requirement of qabalas ol mitzvos for geirus.

The gemara in Yevamos 47b speaks of which mitzvos must be listed as
part of qabalas ol mitzvos. And contrasts to an eved... We can compell
a former eved Kenaani to keep mitzvos; but how does one accept a geir
who feels no loyalty? Force him to feel loyal?

The Rambam and SA both list the criterion of not excluding a single
din. How then can one not require the enterprise of dinim? If someone
saw R' Uziel or R' Goren inside, I would appreciate explanation.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha at aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
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