[Avodah] Torah limud: theoretical/academic versus lishma/yirat hashem/emunat chachamim

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, March 4, 2008 7:41 am, R Michael Makovi wrote:
:>  So, the O Jew should be fascinated and study such info. But he
:> shouldn't confuse it with that which defines how we are to live as O
:> Jews. Not just in terms of halachic authority, but also in terms of
:> perceptions of the goals we live toward. Because, after all, the two
:> are inseparable.

: And here I disagree. I don't think they are inseparable; I think they
: are part and parcel. They are not the same face of the coin, but they
: *are* two sides of the same coin.

??? You think that one cvan separate halachic authority from having a
feel for the goals we are to live forward but they are two sides of
the same coin? I fail to understand what you're driving at.

Someone with an IQ of 168, practice at choosing search terms, and a
Bar Ilan CD isn't a super poseiq. Pesaq requires a skill beyond that.

An O Jew who engages in talmud Torah who is also known for his
academic study of the history of the mesorah may be better informed
and even know more relevent information than his peer who isn't in
academia. But there is no reason to believe he is better attuned on a
gestalt level to what it takes to make the right decisions to live by.

This is why REB's expertise, to my mind, doesn't carry the same weight
as one of the renown poseqim of our times. Never mind being able to
convince me that the consensus of rishonim erred in basic matter of
hashkafah. Even if his reasoning appealed to me, no one today would
convince me to the point of not wondering why this chiddush waited for
them against the words of so many. We're talking about bucking the
entire development of hashkafah from R' Saadia Gaon to the Pachad
Yitzchaq, RYBS and the Nesivos Shalom. He simply lacks the
qualifications I would demand from someone trying to define a derekh.

Brilliance and information are insufficient.

To put it another way: With all the MO talk against da'as Torah, look
how much ink was spilled (and how many bits were arranged?) discussing
RYBS's and RAS's versions of Zionism and whether one can/should give
back territory. Their pictures hanging on their students' walls to
remind them -- not of information, but of the culture, attitudes and
"feel" of their rebbe's shiur room.

: What is the flow of the mesorah? A large part of it is information -
: and thus, academic/objective information can be just as much a part of
: the mesorah, IMO....

Academic information is about it, not it. (To rephrase YU's JSS's
motto: It, not About It. Good motto for a kiruv yeshiva.) It's all
part of my focus on not just knowing, but internalizing. That concept
called "daas Torah". Regardless of how far you believe it should
extend, defining one's derekh ba'avodah is included, no?

And I would say this objection is even more central to why I can not
accept RJA's point. We started by discussing why REB's line of
reasoning, no matter how convincing I found it, would never suffice
for me to be the basis of my relationship to the halakhah. The role of
studying history isn't being denied, it's being defined as different
than what I look for in a moreh derekh. And, on the "history" thread
about mesrash, not what I believe Chazal would put in the collection
of the mesorah we call "Talmud [Torah] Bavli" (parenthetic addition
RAEK's).

:                     I find myself wishing quite often, actually, that
: Chazal were more interested in history per se, because I find that
: even history without a lesson, but rather, just stam history for its
: own sake, makes me feel connected.
: I've never understood the objection, for example, to a certain Chumash
: narrative being stam history. If it has a lesson, yofi, but if not,
: what's the problem? Suppose there were no lessons to learn from the
: Avot and Imot - do you think that then you could dispense with their
: history? ...

Not just Chazal... Look how paltry the biographies of the avos and
Moshe Rabbeinu are. Missing decades in Avraham's life... not even his
re-discovery of monotheism is covered. Large chunks missing from
Moshe's life. No description of the majority of the time in the
midbar. Etc...

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha at aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
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