[Avodah] history

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, February 28, 2008 4:30 pm, Rich, R Joel wrote:
:>> This whole attitude is so a-historical as to be disturbing

:> And Tosfos about Pinchas, Eliyahu, and Beis Hakvaros?

: IIRC we also discussed the universal conservation of personalities
: theory (that chazal had some message in these identifications)

Let's go with the theory  that Chazal simply weren't historians and
thus never cared or paid attention to the question of history. (I
won't call this idea "mine" as I believe it's another one of those
historical consensuses in Torah that today are unpopular.) That asking
historical questions on a medrash isn't a matter of right or wrong,
but simply off topic.

And so, Chazal aren't looking at the historical Pinchas, but the
archetype Pinchas represents. It's not a "universal conservation of
personalities theory" so much as an identification of two people as
serving the same role in the typology.

WRT learning halakhos from the notion that the avos followed kol
haTorah kulah... Chazal similarly couldn't have been talking about
whether or not they actually did. And therefore when they draw
halachic conclusions, it can't be from the history -- since that would
imply an interest in historicity that numerous rishonim tell us didn't
exist.

Avraham was a tzadiq. Moreso, Avraham as portrayed in the Torah is an
archetype used to illustrate positive values. Narratives that are
perpetuated about Avraham avinu can not include activities we consider
wrong, even if wrong because of halakhos that didn't yet exist.
Because if they did, they would water down rather than enhance the
usability of Avraham as an archetype of serving HQBH through chessed.

Therefore, we can make conclusions about the halachic positions of
those who retold the event and allowed the narrative to reach our
ears.

Even if one holds that Avraham avinu a"h served the three visitors
matzos because they came on the 15th of Nissan, the conclusion isn't
drawn on the strength of Avraham's precedent but rather on the
strength of all the people who retold that tidbit.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha at aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
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