[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Michael Makovi]

> To reiterate. You are claiming that the individual members of
> Reform/Conservative have 1) the halachic status of  tinok shenishba and
> that consequently they bear  no guilt at for their actions which violate
> the Torah. However the correct use of the term tinok shenishba (Shabbos
> 68a) is concerning one who is totally ignorant of being Jewish and of
> anything about Torah. Once they receive some knowledge they are
> responsible for not finding out more. It is questionable whether  they
> are still tinok shenishba after this point. From our perspective the
> issue is primarily whether we can aid them to do teshuva and whether
> they are a threat to our communities. They are not given a free pass
> that exempts them from mitzvos. Their rabbinical leadership is even more
> liable because they are much more aware  of their deviation from
> traditional Torah observance. It is also true that it is not always
> helpful to have direct confrontations - but that is a question of
> politics and sociology.
> R' Daniel Eidensohn

I see that I misunderstood your question. You're no longer asking
where I learned that today's nonobservant are TsN (and I replied Hazon
Ish et. al.; I wondered why this wasn't enough for you! LOL); you're
now asking how they're still TsN even after they learn a smidgen of
Torah. So my earlier reply was irrelevant - my apologies.

I am not conversant in the TsN literature (so I cannot give textual
proof for anything I'm about to say), but I find it hard to believe
that one ceases to be a TsN the moment he learns *something* of Torah
without learning that Torah b'klal applies to him. According to this
logic, if a TsN learns the lone fact that Jews do not drag benches on
soft dirt on Shabbat, but he himself still is ignorant of the general
chiyuv of Torah u'mitzvot b'klal, he's suddenly not a tinok she'nishba
- this goes against all logic and reason. Perhaps the Ramban that a
generation could arise someday that thinks Torah does not apply to it,
could be applied here.

Now, the Gemara does say that knowledge of one tiny bit of hilchot
shabbat constitutes knowledge of Shabbat, because the Mishna gives the
number of melachot as 39 to say that someone who violates them all
b'shogeg gets 39 chata'ot. The Gemara asks how he knows about Shabbat
if he was shogeg in all 39 melachot, and it answers that he knew about
techum (Reish Lakish; or that he knew all 39 but was shogeg in karet -
R' Yochanan). But I'd say:

The Gemara says he knows about techum, which constitutes knowledge of
Shabbat. But I'd take it for granted (perhaps erroneously - someone
please correct me if I'm wrong) that he must have also gained
knowledge of the general chiyuv of Torah u'mitzvot and Shabbat b'klal
- he must have learned that Torah was given at Sinai and that Shabbat
is on the seventh day of the week and such. If this TsN learns that
Jews keep techum on Shabbat, but he is still ignorant of the fact that
he himself is chayav in Torah u'mitzvot, and is still ignorant of the
day on which Shabbat falls, and is still ignorant of what Shabbat is
in the first place, I'd think he's still a TsN and shogeg in Shabbat
despite his knowledge of techum! And even if he knows about Shabbat,
if he doesn't yet know that he is chayav in Torah, I'd say he's still
a TsN/shogeg in the whole Torah, I'd think.

To learn that one is obligated in Torah is not a simple matter. As I'm
sure Rn' Toby Katz will testify, one cannot simply take an R/C Jew,
hold up a book that says "All Jews must keep the Torah", and suddenly
a lightbulb will go off and he'll be observant - halevai!! Rather, an
R/C must be convinced to HIS OWN rational/logical satisfaction that
the Torah is true. Until then, he has no reason to think the Torah is
any more applicable to him than the Koran or the Communist Manifesto,
and I personally cannot see basis to fault him. I cannot imagine that
knowledge of the Torah (to establish that one is no longer TsN) means
anything but this - i.e., I cannot imagine that knowledge of Torah
u'mitzvot means anything except that the person has been convinced
that Torah and mitzvot are applicable to him.

I would agree that once someone learns about the chiyuv of Torah
b'klal, and its Sinaicity, etc., then he's no longer TsN, and he is
now shogeg in individual mitzvot one-by-one, and he must learn more.
But this is all only if he knows the chiyuv of Torah! **Anyone** can
easily learn an individual law of Torah, but I don't understand how
Reb Moshe can think that if I find a random R Jew on the street and
open up the Mishna Berurah to a random page and read it (in English)
to him, he's suddenly not TsN anymore, because he knows some Torah.
This is utterly illogical, IMHO. Reb Moshe says this person ought to
know that Torah is logical and rational and that he is obligated in
it, but Reb Moshe never establishes the mechanics of how this ignorant
person/would-be-TsN is supposed to learn in the first place, to his
own satisfaction, that he is liable and obligated in Torah. The burden
of proof for this sevara is on Reb Moshe, IMHO. If Reb Moshe thinks
that an R/C can be so easily convinced that Torah is true, simply by
uttering the sentence "The Torah is true", I want proof; otherwise,
Reb Moshe is trying to argue against the teva that my own eyes see,
and I'm inclined to follow the obvious facts of nature over Reb Moshe.

Rabbi Eidensohn, please excuse me for my impudence, but I'm going to
ask you for a source that tries to give a sevara to establish that a
person is no longer a TsN once he has some knowledge, but does not yet
know that he is chayav b'Torah u'mitzvot. You've given a source that
holds by this sevara - viz. Reb Moshe. What I'm asking for, is proof
of the validity of this sevara itself. Because the evidence of nature
seems to hold otherwise.

And again, I don't see how the R/C rabbinate is more liable than the
laity - the clergy went through the same upbringing as the laity, and
they are as deluded as the laity when it comes to the chiyuv of Torah.
Sure, HUC and JTS teach a lot of text, but it is all in a distorted
manner that leaves its graduates still ignorant of the chiyuv of
Torah. So how are they not TsN?

Mikha'el Makovi