[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Daniel Eidensohn]

R' Michael Makovi wrote:
>> R' Michael Makovi asked:
>>  > Reb Moshe honestly expects these people to realize that
>>  > Torah is true just because there are are rational and
>>  > intelligent benei Torah? And there aren't rational and
>>  > intelligent gentiles? ... If I have been raised in a
>>  > non-Torah environment, why should I have any greater
>>  > predisposition to Torah than the Christian Bible or the
>>  > Koran or Kant or the Bhagavad Gita? Of course they see
>>  > rational and intelligent benei Torah! But they have no
>>  > reason to think more highly of them and their religion
>>  > than they do of all the rational and intelligent
>>  > non-benei Torah!
>>
>>  Thank you for posting this. It is a question which has bothered me for a long time. I hope
>> someone will suggest an answer to it.
>>     
>
> Well, as I said, I've seen numerous statements that a nonreligious Jew
> today is a tinok she'nishba/shogeg, and bears no guilt for what he
> does, b'klal. I am having trouble remembering exactly where I have
> seen this (too many places; it's like asking where I read that pork is
> treif), but I know Einayim Lirot (English translation from Urim: Eyes
> to See) has a chapter on this.
>
>   
It would be helpful if you gave "specific citations" instead of vague 
recollections.

1) Could you please give a citation that a tinok shenishba "bears no 
guilt". You might want to see a teshuva written by Rav Henkin on the subject

the following is an excerpt written by R'  Gil Student.

http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/11/tinok-she-nishbah.html

"In the forthcoming volume 4 of /Bnei Banim/ 
<http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/11/Bnei%20Banim.html>, R. Yehuda Henkin 
adds his voice to this discussion with an essay on this subject (essay 
no. 7 in PDF format 
<http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/11/bnei%20banim%20excerpt2.pdf>). R. 
Henkin points out that the application of the status of /tinok 
she-nishbah/ to secular Jews began in 19th century Germany with the 
great leaders R. Ya'akov Ettlinger and, somewhat later, R. David Tzvi 
Hoffmann. This has been the approach accepted by mainstream halakhists, 
including the author's illustrious grandfather R. Yosef Eliyahu Henkin. 
However, R. Henkin objects to extending this concept beyond its current 
application or to using this status as a justification for 
non-observance. Most importantly, one should never think of himself as a 
/tinok she-nishbah/ because this only becomes an excuse for sinning."


 2) Furthermore I haven't seen any source that the rabbis of Reform and 
Conservative are considered tinok shenishba.  Do you have any such source?

Daniel Eidensohn