[Avodah] Cave or desert island

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 12:49:56PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
...
: Tzelem elokim is not the ultimate tov itself, but rather the way to
: achieve it, according to my understanding, and Ramchal's too I think.

Hashem is the Ultimate Tov, which means that tzelem E-lokim must
perforce be the closest one could get to pure tov.
...
: Tzelem elokim = free will = allows us to do good and avoid evil and
: thus win the ultimate tov through our own effort and not as a gift.

Except that "closeness" to Hashem in a non-physical sense, the means by
which the Ramchal says one can yosheiv veneheneh miziv haSheinah, /is/
similarity.

...
: Rather, I'm saying that it is not the individual by himself that
: matters ultimately. In order to be good, I have to have a neighbor to
: be good to. Taking this to the logical conclusion, it means that
: society is intrinsically necessary for the Torah to be carried out.

That' not what you said, or, to be more exact, what RRWolpoe said that
you ran with, REB's position.

REB says that the beris sinai is national. Which, I am condeming as
giving no purpose or motive to observing any halakhah beyond the 7 mitzvos
benei Noach outside of the context of a Jewish community in Israel.

That's different than discussing the need for a community in general,
rather than the covenental community of Benei Yisrael. The individual's
refinement does require having a community to contribute toward. But
that's conflating points.

: This I believe is one of the axioms of TIDE; a life of seclusion and
: self-perfection is meaningless. One must involve himself in society
: and the world.

TIDE presumes that the purpose of Torah is to refine *the individual*,
thus the need for DE as part of being refined. It doesn't fit this
notion that beris sinai is exclusively national. (Rather than being
both, as I argued.)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha at aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l