[Avodah] What would a Torah government look like

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, January 25, 2008 4:40 am, R Eli Turkel wrote:
: A simple example  one makes an electronic reservation by computer for
: a hotel room or plane flight and holds it with a credit card. When one
: arrives they refuse to honor their commitment.
: Upon screaming they answer that according to halacha a promise to do
: some action is not enforcable and no kinyan was done. Even if one paid
: in advance money is not a kinyan.
...
: At best chazal declared some actions like a handshake a kinyan
: in some circumstances but a computer transaction has none of that.
...

Chazal declared a handshake to be a qinyan because it was the normal
way of doing business. By the same logic, a contemporary gov't could
declare other modes of doing business as binding -- as long as society
expects them to be. In fact, they don't refer to it as a handshake,
but by the more general term, simtuta.

The Morechai (Shabbos 471) says a simtuta can apply even to a davar
shela ba le'olam.

I think the whole point of simtuta is that qinyan is any transaction
people view as binding. You just need "devarim", which thoughts and
words are not -- without some action that reflects them.

...
: BTW in the article of HS there is a fundamental disagreement between
: Haym Soloveitchik and his critic R. Buchwold. HS believes that it the
: job of a posek or RY to be inventive to solve contemporary choshem
: mihspat problems and not just issur veheter. The basic thrust of the
: article is the inventiveness of Raavad to do exactly that. R. Buchwold
: looks at it as almost a reform jew changing halacha due to changed
: circumstances....

I would say that in the case of CM, there is no line between the R
notion of changing the law to fit the zeitgeist and the O practice of
noting relevent parts of the reality and pasqening accordingly -- even
when a seemingly trivial difference causes a change in pesaq.

Here, the social norm /is/ the reality.

I guess I'm saying that I intuitively think along the same lines as
"Dr Grach" (haGaon R' Haym, as some students nicknamed him / or maybe
it was RARakeffet who tried to create the label).


As for the topic of enforcing mitzvos bein adam laMaqom or mitzvos
shim'iyos... I think the advisability and permissability is sorely
curtailed by tov sheyihyu shogegin. Pushing a majority to the point of
rebellion would not be halachically proper. The laws of tokhachah are
complex, and it is not even mutar (never mind a chiyuv) to simply yell
at every avaryan.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv