[Avodah] Cave or desert island

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, January 24, 2008 4:06pm, R Doron Beckerman wrote:
: It may be true that the ultimate goal is to perfect society, but if
: the
: choice is living in a corrupt society and trying to influence them, or
: becoming a hermit/going to live in a cave for fear of them influencing
: you,
: the Rambam in 6th Perek of Hilchos Deos is very clear on which option
: to choose...

If the job is to perfect oneself, one can't choose to avoid sin by
accomplishing less.

Binyamin, Amram, Yishai and Kilav were great people, recorded in
Tanakh for all time as tzadiqim. But none of them are as commemorated
as the ushpizin, who did sin. We bless our kids to be like Ephraim and
Menasheh, not their uncle. Moshe and David are recognized as
surpassing their fathers, and Kilav is barely known -- and didn't get
the melukhah over his brother.

On Thu, January 24, 2008 12:04 pm, R Michael Makovi wrote:
: Any individual by himself can be righteous. And it's not because it's
: easy. Rather, there's nothing to do! True, I haven't stolen or lied or
: injured, but I couldn't if I wanted to! There's a saying, something
: like "When there's nothing to steal, the thief regards his virtue as
: real". So it isn't merely that the achievement was easily won. Rather,
: there's no achievement at all whatsoever!

I disagree with this sentiment for the above reason. There ius more to
personal perfection than not sinning.

Weaving togather another point of RMM's from the paragraph before that
one and the sentence after it:
: But the purpose of the Torah is to perfect the society! As Rabbi Aryeh
: Carmel puts it in Masterplan, the aim of the Torah is not the
: perfected individual, but rather the perfected society.
...
: Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits touches on this, in several places...

This thread started with RRW championing REB's version of this idea,
and my objection to the notion that a perfected society is the sole
goal of beris Sinai, the only thing added beyond the beris with Noach.

My argument was that if this were true, there would be no value to
doing mitzvos specific to Jews when cut off from all other Jews.
Perhaps even when cut off to the point of not having contact with 10
Jewish adults. (Of either gender; qiddush Hashem doesn't require the
minyan be men so we see a quantum of Jewish community isn't
necessarily gender specific).

On Wed, January 23, 2008 12:02 am, R Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: But the ikkar Torah is in a community.  Bedi'avad of course one does
: what he can on a desert island

Why would he even have a bedi'eved duty? After all, it's a community's
duty, and his actions have no impact on Jewish community.

Again I'm jumping back to get to a new point. RRW writes earlier in
that post:
: You are conflating bein adam lamakom to bein adam lachaviero

You didn't give me motivation to make that distinction. After all,
according to your position, any mitzvah beyond the 66 included in the
7 mitzvos benei Noach only gain their relevancy from the community.
Even bein adam laMaqom ones only exist to sanctify that community. No?

I would instead follow the Ramchal, that mitzvos exist to perfect the
self, as he understands the tanna's mashal of "prepare on erev Shabbos
so that you can feast on Shabbos".

Why then do Jews have more mitzvos. "Ratzah HQBH lezakos es
Yisrael..." Peirush haRambam -- because it gives us more opportunities
to have that moment of epiphany (koneh olamo besha'ah achas) by which
we get olam haba.

I might not share the Rambam's love of phrasing the goal in terms of
yediah, as per a conversation we had back in vol 2, about the Rambam
thereby concluding that mentally retarded people have smaller souls.
However, the notion that more mitzvos means more tools or
opportunities to accomplish one's tafqid stands.

More opportunities is only good if you take one. More wasted
opportunities is reason for culpability. Jews play for higher stakes.

That's in addition to being part of a national covenant. As I wrote
shortly before RMM joined, there were at least two berisim in Sinai.
Not only is a Jew a component of a holy Kelal Yisrael, but Kelal
Yisrael is composed of holy Jews. We need both.

I tried leveraging the pasuq "mamlekhes kohanim" (belashon rabim, each
Jew being a kohein), "vegoy qadosh" (belashon yachid, the sanctity of
the goy as a unit). However, RRW showed that "mamlekhes kohanim" isn't
necessarily translated that way. Although I still don't understand how
those rishonim can call it "peshat".

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv