[Avodah] Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell

[hankman]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chana Luntz" <chana at kolsassoon.org.uk>
To: "'hankman'" <salman at videotron.ca>; <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Avodah] Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell


> R'n CL wrote:
> > > fasting in late pregnancy can bring on labor (supposedly
> > the delivery rate at frum hospitals goes up around Yom Kippur).
> > >
> > CM responds:
> > So what's your point. The halacha is that pregnant woman do
> > fast on Yom Kippur, they do not get a pass if everything is
> > running as a normal problem-free pregnancy.
> >
>
R'n CL wrote:
> Agreed, but given the heightened risk, perhaps if a woman is then
> showing some additional factor (in this case a particular craving to
> eat) that suggests that she is no longer in the category of a normal,
> problem-free pregnancy.
>
>
> > > And certainly when I was 34 weeks with Yonit, and they
> > needed to do a  very minor medical procedure, which normally would
>>> only have involved,  at most, the practice nurse at my local doctor's
> surgery, they
> > > insisted on hospitalising me for two days, on the grounds that
> > > "anything can set off labor at this stage" and they therefore wanted
> me in for observation
> > > "just in case".   34 weeks, of course today with modern
> > neo-natal units, is not very risky, but I imagine at the time of
> chazal it
> > was, as the  lungs are generally not fully formed, and a baby born at
> that time
> > > would generally need some form of breathing assistance initially.
> > >
> > CM responds:
> > While what you say is without doubt true, it is off point.
> > What does this have to do with a condition wherein a pregnant
> > woman smells something and as a result is endangered unless she eats?
> >
> R'n CL responds:
> The link is this:  in a normal problem free pregancy, nobody would have
> suggested hospitalisation.  Without being pregnant, nobody would have
> suggested hospitalisation, it was the combination of the two that led to
> the recommendation for hospitalisation.
>
> Similarly, given the known risk of early labor, given the known risk of
> fasting bringing on labor, would not an above average craving for food
> (which is presumably causing the woman some distress, it is unlikely to
> get as far as a shialas chacham were it not) therefore be logically
> considered an indication that the particular woman in question had a
> higher risk factor of going into labor than the norm?
>
> The impression I have been given about distress and miscarriage/early
> labor is that traumatic events can trigger miscarriage or early labor
> because the body of the woman acts to protect the woman by jettisoning
> the fetus in situations of danger.  Similarly, the body acts to protect
> against pregnancy in such situations (so that women in famine stricken
> areas who are starving are generally not fertile).  Fasting is, by
> definition, a traumatic event, as it mimics famine conditions.  However,
> one day is not sufficiently traumatic that it necessarily or even in the
> vast majority of cases results in miscarriage/labor - ie the risk is
> regarded as not sufficient to stop all pregnant women fasting on Yom
> Kippur (although it is on the minor fasts).  But given the elevated
> risk, it does not seem surprising to me that any woman who was showing
> an abnormal reaction to food would thereby be considered to have crossed
> the threshold into the sakana category, since arguably pregancy is
> already a borderline case.

CM responds:
You write very logically on the subject, but with adr I do not think this is
what is going on in this Mishna. It is discussing a very specific syndrome,
I am just trying to identify what that is in modern terms or if it exists
anymore and nishtane hateva. I can not say for sure, but I imagine if a
pregnant woman was rushed to an emergency ward with the complaint "I just
smelled some pizza, please save my life" she would be laughed out of
emergency. To my mind, there is some disconnect here between modern reality
and the situation of the Mishna. Either there are cases that might fit the
bill as Dr. JB seems to be arguing, or my sense of things is possible and we
must say nishtane hateva.

BTW, it seems to be generally accepted that we already apply the idea of
nishtane hateva wrt to the menstrual cycle of modern women as different from
that in the time of chazal.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster